Slave Surgery

A visiting slave was publicly punished by our Magistrates hand with a lashing for performing unsupervised surgery. And now there are angry stirrings and men in black threatening Laurans involved? That's crazy, right?

I don't know much about green caste etiquette, but I do know that a slave may never put a Free in their debt, and I suspect this surgery would have done that. If it was a life or death situation, couldn't some first aid be performed until a physician could attend?

Since when do the Free have to justify lashing a slave for any reason? /end rant

Obviously I agree with you since I'm the one that wanted her punished to start with, Adora.

To the rest of Laura: What I find truly sad is that some of our own citizens that professed to be by the book and all for what we are doing with Laura, have been so up in arms over this punishment. She was whipped, she wasn't killed and if you want to be strictly accurate and TRUE TO GOR, it was within my right to throw her to the tharlarions if that was my wish and pay her master her worth.

Gor is not a gentle kind place, and frankly the "masters" in SL Gor that are really only wanting girlfriends not slaves give the real masters in there a bad name. If you want a girlfriend, then by all means, take a FC, fall in love with your slave even, but if you've read even ONE of the books you'll know that even when Tarl was in love with a slave he treated her AS A SLAVE!! C'mon! What the hell are you in Gor for if you aren't wanting to rp these books? I see Free men beat the hell out of FW and slaves for far less than this and no one bats an eye. Why this time? Is it because a FW dared to stand up for accurate rp and have a slave punished for doing something that absolutely no slave in those books would ever have dared to do?

I am saddened truly to know that there are complaints against Laura's Green for "never being on" when they are needed. I heard that there is "never a green around ever" when something is going down. Um hello, we have 3, yes that's 3 physicians in Laura. The three of us are on as much as humanly possible, and I spend literally hours online with no one engaging me in rp of any medical sort and I know the same is true of both the others because many times <gasp> they are online at the same time I am. Yet there are "never" any green in Laura. Well all I have to say to that, is we are working as hard as we can to recruit more people to the green and get them trained up as fast as possible yet still maintain a quality of rp. If I had a bunch of healing slaves acting as fully trained physicians, or poorly trained docs running around the same ones complaining now would bitch because the quality of the rp sucked. So here's my thought on that: When you are in Laura 24/7 and willing to become green, then you can complain to me. Otherwise, you call in a phys from somewhere else if one of us is not on until I'm able to get enough people to be there all the time. At the very worst, rp an npc if you have to. But for pity's sake, don't bitch that there are never any green on because it's not true and I'm working hard to get you more green. If you don't or can't appreciate that fact, feel free to find a city with more green or that allow non-gorean rp.

My final thought on all this, I find it truly pathetic that both my physicians have been bitched at over this, when neither had anything to do with my decision to call out a warrant on this slave, rather than the complaints coming directly to me. The slave in question isn't upset over this matter the way some of the men here are. If you feel my RP in all this is inaccurate, then grow a pair and confront me yourself.

First of all I believe there are emotions involved that are mixed by OOC en IC, and I hope I will be able to put down my thoughts, without being judgemental. So ... when your offended by my posting please give me a moment to clarify as I am not that well in English to write down.

For myself I see this matter as IC and it did raise many questions, as I am a kajira that wants to know how to avoid being punished. In several cases I almost got in the same situation as the slave that was punished, so Raven is shocked and truly upset.

The questions she has are :

1. When holding a knife is enough to be punished why am I allowed to prepare meals, like slicing bread ?
2. One time me and an other kajira needed to do surgery on a warrior. The other kajira took a knife and was praised by her glorious actions. Why ? Because it was a free ?
3. What is conciderate a weapon and what is it based on ?
4. When you state that any Free can punish a slave, why didn't the Master that she confessed to punish her ? Why was it brougth before the Magistrate?

When there is stated that there aren't many physicians around I must partly admit that on several moments the past week, there weren't any and Raven needed to do her best she could. Thankfull her Master helped her, as for I question now I could have been killed, because of cutting out a splinter by a free man. Still as a person I can fully understand that it is almost impossable to have all people all the time in Laura, even for Warriors or slaves is that the case.

When there is a crisis situation I shout for a physician, I check the signs at the door, I even knock hard on the door in the Infirmery. I even try to find someone in my friendslist, and at one point I even asked 2 physicians to come while they are both telling me they wouldn't because of other obligations. I can understand that, but Raven felt lost and left to the mercy of the outcome from what she needed to do.

Personaly I hope this discussion will be something we all can do in our IC point of view, but we all need to realise that even that IC point of view has a different approuch.

1. the point of view of the slave, maybe not valuable, but what to think of the point of view of the Master that owns the slave. Here is stated that it has to do with not treating your slave as a slave but as a girlfriend. The worth of a slave is adressed by its owner, and can't hold different reasons than love. What to think of knowledge and skills ?

2. the point of view of the Master/Mistresses that are involved because they believe it was wrong to bring it to the counsel as they feel it should have dealed with by the one that was offended

3. etc. etc.

I truly hope ... but please I am not that aware of the rules or the guidelines that are given in the books, that even Goreans when they don't see eye to eye, keep in mind that anyone has maybe a different point of view that is worthwhile to listen to ?

Last remark ... please let this stay IC ...

Scenario:

Two Free Women are attacked by a Warrior from another homestone.
One Free Woman is badly injured at the risk of death.

What if the second Free Woman could not stand by and have the life of another Free woman threatened?
What if she feels forced by her moral code to try and save her friend’s life?
What if no Warrior was available?
What if she produces a bow and arrow and shoots the Warrior?
What if she was trained to shoot?
What if shooting was her passion?
What if she was in her nation’s Olympic team?

Remember your answer …….now read on…….

Second scenario:

Two slaves are attacked by a Warrior from another homestone.
One slave is badly injured at the risk of death.

What if the second slave could not stand by and have the life of another slave threatened?
What if she feels forced by her moral code to try and save her friend’s life?
What if no Physician was available?
What if she produces a scalpel and performs surgery?
What if she was trained to operate?
What if it surgery was her passion?
What if she was a surgeon in RL?


If you think both these scenarios allow for the females to use equipment normally not permitted because of the emergency situation you are playing “Gor-evolved”.

If you think the first one wrong and the second right, go and read! You are allowing more privileges to a slave than to a Free Woman. Read up about healing kajiras, they are NOT stand-in-Physicians when there are no real Physicians available. A Physician enslaved can no longer practice as such and yes she will not be less skilled! Unfair I hear you say? Duh, this is Gor!

So what if there are no Physicians available at times? Deal with it as best as you can! Do Free Women and slaves take up a sword because there are no warriors around? Perhaps we should have the Free serve each other when there are no slaves around? Get real!!! And yeah maybe we need a Euro-time Physician,
.
If you think both scenarios wrong, you are right!

When you play ball, stick to the rules, don’t like the rules, learn them!

For my two cents, I didn't even consider the "wielding a knife" issue when sending out the notice for arrest for the girl. The thing is this: A free may never be in debt to a slave, and even a physician apprentice is kept from performing surgery and the like without a full physician present. As far as I am concerned, she should have been killed and her master paid recompense.

As a second consideration, as a free gorean man, it is within my right to punish any slave I see, for any reason. Any who believe that they should "protect" a slave from a punishment are just whacked. This is Gor, people. Slaves are chattel, animals. Valuable only as property. They are not "lives". When a new girl is brought in to the city and collared, she undergoes ten lashes. For no reason other than to teach her her place. If the girl can't deal with punishment, she shouldn't be a slave.

Bravo for by the books, in this situation slaves are truly being treated as should be done in that respect and I'm glad to see Markos stating a few very meaningful phrases there that people seem to forget once they enter "RP Gor", especially when he said the following:

"As a second consideration, as a free gorean man, it is within my right to punish any slave I see, for any reason."

Any free my punish any slave it is within their rights and remember on some occasions it was mentioned in the books that they would be punished simply as a reminder or without cause even though it wasn't done in writing (I'm on book 12 about halfway through), it was said to have been done.

This sort of situation is why I believe everyone should at least read a few of the books to get the feel of Gor, especially the later books where Tarl is no longer a "weaker" Gorean and has given up his Earthly values and morals and the silly thoughts of sending Vella (Elizabeth Cardwell) back to Earth.

As for that scenario, the first one is "ok" I guess but there are a lot of unanswered questions. What kind of bow is she using because she can't be using a peasant bow. Where did she get it from? She is thoroughly enraged I guess (enough to sufficient not using the weapons she should be)? Has she any poison and dagger (which is what she SHOULD be using)? Finally, was she attacked during a sport slave hunt to give reason to why she would have weapons at her disposal other than concealed dagger/hair pin.

The second is not ok and not just by reasons of the books, it is also by reason that a slave would never have a scalpel lol

I'm pretty new to this and Gor, and entirely not involved in the incident/scenario. I know that I don't know much yet.

But what I see is that the ground rules which set the "attitudes" are the framework that Gor RP must follow or fall apart. Is some of it "unfair"? Yes, but by definition it is "right". Do away or twist the rules at whim and you insult all those who abide by the rules (in character) and insult the City. A character is not loved because they are worth a lot, they are worth a lot because they are loved and true to their role (eg. a slave is chattel and not worth much intrinsically, yet can be greatly loved and worth a great deal if they have the ability to be a true character).

If a Free wants to make an issue of a slave holding a weopon when she is slicing bread, the "Free" is right. Not a very elegant "take" -- I'd hope a good Free could be more clever than that to "make an issue out of a situation". But keep in mind that the "Free" is right. period. I think the best roleplay comes about not from nit-picking close to the letter of the rules, but from fully engaging the attitudes and spirit of the rules. Use some imagination and creativity, but don't set aside the letter of the law -- show that you can work and excell within them! I see plenty of room for expression of emotion to guide a character but I don't think a rule should be set aside for "convienence to avoid the emotion of impatience that a character needed isn't immediately available so anyone can step in to that role and usurp it". Don't grumble about punishement when a rule is violated and - accept that as a scenario and play it out -- seek mercy, go to Council, have hearing, receive punishment, be thankful the Rules and your character are worth preserving rather than tossing either out lightly.

Well, that's my naieve "attitude" - I have in a little time gained quite a bit of respect for the avs and characters involved in Laura, and I hope we can all "live out and appreciate our roles" together.

From my perspective, the issue of the availability of physicians isn't an issue at all. Second Life Gor is an online roleplaying medium that spans many time zones. There will always be a time when the people and roles you need will not be there. This is to be expected, and handled through IC roleplay.

The issue on whether the slave should or should not be punished in this scenario is also not an issue. A slave can be punished by anyone, for any reason, whether anyone else would agree with that reason or not.

What irks me about this entire set of events is how it has been played out. Specifically, how folks leapt to rules and books, and threw them about as if the mere mention of them should have everyone fall down mute in devout homage and submission, begging to be forgiven. Subsequently, we now have accusations being thrown about, based on how un-Gorean some people think other people are being, as if they were some kind of slime or simpletons.

This is a roleplaying environment. People will be attempting, I hope, to play their characters as faithfully as they can. No amount of rule-bashing, childish whining or blinkered preaching should ever interfere with a faithful and responsible IC reaction to encountered events. If it does, then we're moving away from roleplay and becoming a discussion group. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, a gentle reminder or correction about a rule or whatever in IM is quite enough for a sensible, mature roleplayer. Often, the player will be grateful for the information.

This whole affair has been more about OOC drama than it has been about IC storytelling and roleplay. I have a very low tolerance for OOC drama. I will not participate in it overlong, and I certainly will not be directed to or dictated by it.

Grow up, people. Start thinking about the players behind the characters. Start realizing that real people can be upset, sometimes quite deeply, by all this kind of inconsiderate and immature behavior. Gor may be unkind and harsh, but Second Life, or indeed any kind of civilized community, should not. We are a community of roleplayers trying to enjoy the Gorean setting, not a bunch of round pegs to be hammered into square holes.

If people can't take the roleplay head on, help their fellow players to understand the setting, and enjoy the stories being created, then consider finding some other venue for shits and giggles.

Byron wrote:

From my perspective, the issue of the availability of physicians isn't an issue at all. Second Life Gor is an online roleplaying medium that spans many time zones. There will always be a time when the people and roles you need will not be there. This is to be expected, and handled through IC roleplay.

The issue on whether the slave should or should not be punished in this scenario is also not an issue. A slave can be punished by anyone, for any reason, whether anyone else would agree with that reason or not.

What irks me about this entire set of events is how it has been played out. Specifically, how folks leapt to rules and books, and threw them about as if the mere mention of them should have everyone fall down mute in devout homage and submission, begging to be forgiven. Subsequently, we now have accusations being thrown about, based on how un-Gorean some people think other people are being, as if they were some kind of slime or simpletons.

This is a roleplaying environment. People will be attempting, I hope, to play their characters as faithfully as they can. No amount of rule-bashing, childish whining or blinkered preaching should ever interfere with a faithful and responsible IC reaction to encountered events. If it does, then we're moving away from roleplay and becoming a discussion group. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, a gentle reminder or correction about a rule or whatever in IM is quite enough for a sensible, mature roleplayer. Often, the player will be grateful for the information.

This whole affair has been more about OOC drama than it has been about IC storytelling and roleplay. I have a very low tolerance for OOC drama. I will not participate in it overlong, and I certainly will not be directed to or dictated by it.

Grow up, people. Start thinking about the players behind the characters. Start realizing that real people can be upset, sometimes quite deeply, by all this kind of inconsiderate and immature behavior. Gor may be unkind and harsh, but Second Life, or indeed any kind of civilized community, should not. We are a community of roleplayers trying to enjoy the Gorean setting, not a bunch of round pegs to be hammered into square holes.

If people can't take the roleplay head on, help their fellow players to understand the setting, and enjoy the stories being created, then consider finding some other venue for shits and giggles.

None of this has been ooc for me, it's not about ooc "drama" because I don't know the girl at all, it's not personal. It was completely about IC storytelling and roleplay. She's not the first to completely disregard the infirmary rp guidelines that are on display in the infirmary for all to see. I responded as any good FW or Head Physician would, I had the slave punished. As I said, I could easily have had her killed and been completely within my right as a FW to do so. I did not. Why? Because there is a person on the other end of that slave av that probably loves her av as much as I love mine, and I didn't think it would be fair to her to kill off her av because she made a mistake, one she even rp'd at the time she knew the consequences of. The OOC part is the Free men running round barring their slaves from now serving a physician that had nothing more to do with the matter than reporting it to his boss, which is precisely what he should have done. That and all the bitching that there are never Green on when you want them, that's ooc, no IC.

You can't have this both ways, you can't say Gor is harsh and then complain when someone validly responds in a harsh way to some behavior that in truth should have been called invalid because there are no slaves that would have done what she did, but I know she just didn't know and made a mistake. She and I are cool about it, and have no hard feelings toward each other, we both took it as a learning experience and moved on. It's the IC actions of the Free Men that had nothing to do with it that has created any drama. Speaking strictly IC, the situation played out validly so I'm not sure what about it irritates you. Frankly I can't imagine that the punishing of a slave that doesn't even belong to him and wasn't residing in his city, for an action that could plausibly have resulted in her death, would have cause a free man to threaten a physician of his city and then refuse the service of his slave to that physician. But, free can do what they want so there ya go.

Quote :

If people can't take the roleplay head on, help their fellow players to understand the setting, and enjoy the stories being created, then consider finding some other venue for shits and giggles.

I agree with you completely on this and it very well supports my point of view.

Raven wrote:

For myself I see this matter as IC and it did raise many questions, as I am a kajira that wants to know how to avoid being punished. In several cases I almost got in the same situation as the slave that was punished, so Raven is shocked and truly upset.

Then raven needs to understand fully what she would and would not be allowed to do, and the simple truth is no slave is permitted to perform surgery regardless of the circumstances. From a strictly IC point of view, it wouldn't happen. The desire to help would be there, but the risk of her own death would certainly prevent her from action on that desire.

Quote :

1. When holding a knife is enough to be punished why am I allowed to prepare meals, like slicing bread ?
2. One time me and an other kajira needed to do surgery on a warrior. The other kajira took a knife and was praised by her glorious actions. Why ? Because it was a free ?
3. What is conciderate a weapon and what is it based on ?
4. When you state that any Free can punish a slave, why didn't the Master that she confessed to punish her ? Why was it brougth before the Magistrate?

1. I don't believe it's at all the same thing, it's not the holding of the scalpel that got her in trouble, it's the performing of surgery and in doing so it would force that slave's master to be in the debt of a slave. If you've read the books, you'll know that's not allowed period.

Quote :

1. the point of view of the slave, maybe not valuable, but what to think of the point of view of the Master that owns the slave. Here is stated that it has to do with not treating your slave as a slave but as a girlfriend. The worth of a slave is adressed by its owner, and can't hold different reasons than love. What to think of knowledge and skills ?

Honestly I don't care what master falls in love with his kajira, it's valid and happened in the books often. I do care when that slave then is protected from things in SL that no Free would have protected her from in the books. But, I also understand that SL is real life Earth people and some allowances should be made. I'm ok with that as well, don't want your kajira to fur other men? Great, restrict her and put her in a belt when she's in public. But, Laura states clearly, over and over, we are a by the book sim. So, are we playing this by the book or not? If you're not willing to play it by the book including harsh punishments for misdeeds, accounting for your actions etc, then perhaps another sim would suit you better. Not saying you personally, nor anyone in this city or this forum, that's just a general observation about SL Gor overall.

Quote :

2. the point of view of the Master/Mistresses that are involved because they believe it was wrong to bring it to the counsel as they feel it should have dealed with by the one that was offended

The physician that first heard the confession of the slave very certainly could have slain her right then and there and been within his right. He is new to the city, therefore not as familiar with how matters might be dealt with within his new homestone and I believe it was just as valid for him to bring it to me rather than deal with it himself, there were some Gorean men who weren't as decisive and quick to punish as others. My taking it to the council, well honestly, I'm on the council so what's the difference there in my throwing her to the larls or having her arrested and lashed so that she might live to continue her rp?

Quote :

I truly hope ... but please I am not that aware of the rules or the guidelines that are given in the books, that even Goreans when they don't see eye to eye, keep in mind that anyone has maybe a different point of view that is worthwhile to listen to ?

Last remark ... please let this stay IC ...

I agree all points of view are valid and that's why we're having this discussion. For my part, this has always been IC, it never was OOC.

VeritusXue wrote:

I think the best roleplay comes about not from nit-picking close to the letter of the rules, but from fully engaging the attitudes and spirit of the rules. Use some imagination and creativity, but don't set aside the letter of the law -- show that you can work and excell within them! I see plenty of room for expression of emotion to guide a character but I don't think a rule should be set aside for "convienence to avoid the emotion of impatience that a character needed isn't immediately available so anyone can step in to that role and usurp it". Don't grumble about punishement when a rule is violated and - accept that as a scenario and play it out -- seek mercy, go to Council, have hearing, receive punishment, be thankful the Rules and your character are worth preserving rather than tossing either out lightly.

Well said and that's exactly what bugs me most. You don't just say "well I see no green on so anyone can just step in and be green because I don't want to rp a npc or call for a phys from elsewhere." In a city, even one the size of Laura, there would actually BE physicians around at all times and this would never have to happen. Since it's SL, and so far we have only three people willing to be green that are fully trained, and two more that are brand spanking new apprentices, and only I think two, maybe three slaves that are still in training for basic first aid... we have to make some allowances that there might not be a green on when we want one. CHECK FIRST before you rp getting shot maybe, hold off that rp if you must be hurt until a physician is on. If you dont' want to do that or feel that's unreasonable, call for a physician from elsewhere. IM the physicians caste of gor group or someone in it and get a physician there that is fully trained. If you dont' want to do that or that's too much trouble and you are in danger of dying, then RP a NPC physician to keep the rp accurate. I agree that's the last choice, but it's better than the complete lack of authenticity of a slave performing surgery on anyone. It just would not have happened and that should be the bottom line here. Either we are by the book or we are not.

Quote :

we now have accusations being thrown about, based on how un-Gorean some people think other people are being, as if they were some kind of slime or simpletons.

Wow, I must miss all the good stuff while I am at work.

I must admit I don't really understand the controversy here. A slave practiced surgery, which she is not allowed to do, and was punished, not even severely. I have now heard "But what if I am injured and desperately need attention!?!" Then you get basic first aid from an infirmary assistant slave to stabilize you until a physician can look at you. Or send to another city for a physician.

As for book thumping, I don't respond well to that either. The books are a starting point, and we hold to them as close as possible in Laura, but the environment of SL and realities of RL mean that some things must be different. I don't believe in the "it never happened in the books so it is impossible" argument. Many things didn't happen in the books. I am inclined to add some of the mundane realities that did not make it into the books. The only requirement is ,it must be PLAUSIBLE.

I don't know what the issue is about a girl being punished. If a girl so much as touches an initiate, she dies. Its caste code. Just like no one other than a fully trained physician performing surgery is a caste code. I need someone to explain to me when whipping a slave became a controversy, and I don't mean that in a snarky way. I really don't get it.

Raven wrote:

The questions she has are :

1. When holding a knife is enough to be punished why am I allowed to prepare meals, like slicing bread ?

I invite anyone to please correct me if what I am about to say is wrong.

No, Raven we do not have access to knifes to cut up things in the Tavern. We tear bread and cheese and I was told in training long ago that when cutting something that need to be cut like vegetable for a stew we are allowed a sharped flat river stone. Its sharp enough to do the trick without being considered a "blade"

Now here the thing. Could that sharpen rock do as much damage as a FW's dagger? Probably. Then why are we allowed to use it you might say. I carry an extremely rare and expensive device called a goad that when placed on the correct setting can kill. Can KILL. Why am I allowed to carry this, let me tell you why. It is the principle of the rule. Slaves are cattle, slaves are animals and are not worthy to touch something as dangerous and maybe even as scared as a warrior sword. Now of course with the goad I've been given specific permission by my owner and those of the High Council and I have NO DOUBT that if I even looked like I would use it for something other than its intended purposes I'd be killed on the spot.

Raven wrote:

2. One time me and an other kajira needed to do surgery on a warrior. The other kajira took a knife and was praised by her glorious actions. Why ? Because it was a free ?

Raven, Healing slaves are less than you everyday nurses. We are more like candy-strip girls. We are there to do the small menial tasks that the physicians don't want, and don't have time to do. We are there to assit them in things like surgery BUT ONLY to "hold this" "get this" "clean this" that's it. There should never ever be a situation where "another kajira and I had to do surgery" this makes shiver at my computer chair.

As a fully trained healing slave for in Gor's time, over a year, *could* I perform some minor surgery. Possibly. Would I do it? It depends. If a slave laid on the table before me dying no I would not. If some random free person laid on the table before me dying, no I would not. If someone I consider very close to me laid on that table, Anya, Ari, Sage for example I have to put some serious thought into the matter and decided if my Mistress would prefer me to retain my life or theirs. Now if my Mistress or Gavin laid on the table before me, know this, yes I would do all I could to save them. Even if that meant surgery. But doing this I would know FULL well that within minutes of doing so I wil be killed. I would be making that choice to save my owners life as hers is FAR more important that I, a meager slave.

So with all that said should you ever touch something like a scalpel to cut an arrow out? I say it depends but YOU MUST know the consequence of your actions.

Raven wrote:

3. What is conciderate a weapon and what is it based on ?

Just what you think. A Sword, Axe, dagger and bow. Now there are some that ride that fine line but do you want to take that chance. I'd consider a sharped and poisoned hair pin, a goad, a scalpel and a whip weapons that require permission to touch and especially permission to use.

Raven wrote:

4. When you state that any Free can punish a slave, why didn't the Master that she confessed to punish her ? Why was it brought before the Magistrate?

Dren is new to the city and I can see, without talking to him, where he might be coming from. He *may* have come from places that would have immediately disliked him for doing something, they feel, as drastic as killing a slave. I understand that he wanted to check with those higher than him to make sure the *right* things was done. [/quote]

Raven wrote:

When there is stated that there aren't many physicians around I must partly admit that on several moments the past week, there weren't any and Raven needed to do her best she could. Thankful her Master helped her, as for I question now I could have been killed, because of cutting out a splinter by a free man. Still as a person I can fully understand that it is almost imposable to have all people all the time in Laura, even for Warriors or slaves is that the case.

The most active physicians we have EVER had in Laura is three. Sage, Aria and Maileene. I've been the only fully trained Healing Slave. With Maileen on hiatus we recently brought out numbers from 2 to 3, with Dren with us now. I know both Sage, Aria and myself are on *everyday*, to be honest, anywhere from 8-15 hours a day. Now do the three of us sit there in the infirmary all that time? No! Because god it's fuck boring and our SL is more than waiting there for someone to get hurt. Even we have to sleep at time and as I've always said if you need medical assistance when a Green it not there just RP like there was. I would assume that the Laura High Council would make sure to staff there physicians on different shifts so there is always one there.

Raven wrote:

1. the point of view of the slave, maybe not valuable, but what to think of the point of view of the Master that owns the slave. Here is stated that it has to do with not treating your slave as a slave but as a girlfriend. The worth of a slave is addressed by its owner, and can't hold different reasons than love. What to think of knowledge and skills ?

Any true Goren Master or Jarl I would think that that wouldn't even cross their mind. Do you expect your German Shepard to get up on the table and sew someone up? Raven remember, even as hard as it is for me, we RP slaves. At best we are beloved pets.

Markos wrote:

Quote :

we now have accusations being thrown about, based on how un-Gorean some people think other people are being, as if they were some kind of slime or simpletons.

The only requirement is ,it must be PLAUSIBLE.

I don't know what the issue is about a girl being punished. If a girl so much as touches an initiate, she dies. Its caste code. Just like no one other than a fully trained physician performing surgery is a caste code. I need someone to explain to me when whipping a slave became a controversy, and I don't mean that in a snarky way. I really don't get it.

I agree with you here completely, and perhaps my wording isn't correct in previous posts on this matter. I do have a tendency to think and speak in absolutes, something I'm working on and admit to freely as a flaw. I do fully believe though that a slave doing surgery is highy implausible with the possible exception of snow's example. For that matter, I agree with maddison's rp and didn't call invalid for that reason. She did what she felt she had to do to save someone that was important to her. Fine. I'm ok with that RP. There were consequences to her action, she was fully aware of what those consequences could be because she RP'd it more than once during that surgery she knew she would be killed for this. Hell maybe I really messed up and that's what she was looking for and I dropped the ball on it. If that's the case I apologize to her for not having her killed.

My biggest beef is all the crap that happened after, with both of my hard working physicians having to suffer through inquisitions, accusations, and brow beating for something that I IC'ly did and stand behind. I think that's just cowardly as shit, IC of course. OOC, If you had a problem with my RP, or even just IC with the actions I took IC, then why not just come and confront me about it? I'd welcome the RP.

I'm going to use a tactic here that I saw Markos use last night during my little "honorable sword fight" with Uggar.



**
SLAVES

Don't practice surgery. Do not pick up a weapon. If a Free *or* a slave is on their death bed HAUL ASS to another sim and get a physician. You may be a healing kajira but remember one thing: YOU ARE A SLAVE. *You* chose the role, no one forced it on you, and act appropriately. If we let "earth emotions" take over in RP, then we are no longer playing GOR. We all do it - yes. We are of earth in RL, but we just live and learn. Also keep in mind how difficult it is to find people who want to roleplay a Gorean Free Physician. It's damn hard RP sometimes and is not all the glory and fuss that being a warrior or even a magistrate hails. Also let's stop attacking the green for not being around enough when I see with my own eyes that they are online and in the city as much as possible. I have heard the complaints and seen the frustration of doing nothing for hours but giving slaves their tests. Our green work damn hard and no one can justifiably refute that.

I suspect no slaves in Laura will pick up a knife or weapon ever again after this incident, this is the silver lining in all of this.



**
FREE MEN

DO NOT lynch your fellow citizens for decisions they make which affect a SLAVE. Remember, slaves did not even *have* protectors in the books (and I am seriously considering taking my protection off of all slaves and not having protectors for mine either - okay yes - done, I'm doing that). What upset me MOST about all of this was how the Free started treating each other. It's ridiculous and must stop. I walked away from the city last night I was so mad Karlotte was not to serve Dren. I fully admit it. There were no other slaves around and Free Women were being served before Gavin was - and he was even there first. And, then Dren is not allowed service from the only Kajira there? WTF? Sorry but yeah that was damn annoying. Yeah Dren could have whipped her, but by that point emotions were so high from all this I suspsect he just wanted to move on. I don't know - I left. Point is - all slaves of Laura should be serving all Free of Laura - PERIOD. Especially when the Free in question (Dren) did not do a damn thing to Karlotte's owner *OR* to Bella's owner for that matter. Sorry but that's how I see it. And *that* is not an OOC complaint - it is ENTIRELY IC.

**
PHYSICIANS

Be patient with the masses. We know (at least I know) you are working hard to recruit more for our fast-growing city. It takes a lot of patience. If people are complaining, send them to me, I will set them straight. I've seen the amazing work you do in our city and I've seen the frustrations you personally have with not having enough roleplayers to fill the roles of green. If people do not understand how hard it is, just educate them on a person-by-person basis.

Last point: I love Laura. I love the people of Laura, every single one of them. We are doing an amazing job. We need to push aside some pride, apologies all around, and move forward. Hell I'll apologize for you if you want, I want the city to continue being happy and strong, united. I truly think if we simply listen to each other (and yes I do mean IC), and not jump to accusations and assumptions we will be even stronger tomorrow than we were yesterday.

Gav!

Quote :

4. When you state that any Free can punish a slave, why didn't the Master that she confessed to punish her ? Why was it brought before the Magistrate?

Dren, not knowing the full on "gorean" point of view on this, brought it to Sage, who brought it to me. It went before the magistrate because I ordered it done. My initial reaction was to kill her for it, to be quite honest. When someone becomes a slave, they begin life anew. They may be surgeons, builders, scribes, what have you. That was their former life. Now they are slave. They are not allowed to practice the trappings of their old caste, even if they have the knowledge. Had this girl been a full physician, and now a slave, my reaction would be the same. It just isn't done. Aria can't even be a full physician, because she hadn't had two children. Why does a slave get to be one? Where did she learn surgery? Had the slave died under her care, would the anger be directed a different way? Would everyone still think she had a right to do it?

Since we are on the topic, what should have happened is Maddison should have been force collared to the city. It is my understanding she is the slave of an outlaw. An outlaw cannot legally own property, and the city should have just taken her, as is our right. If her master showed up to collect her, and was found to be an outlaw, he should have been impaled without question. That is what happened in the cities of Gor. I deliberately did NOT want any of that done. I thought a simple whipping would be a lesson. This was not done out of malice, I don't know maddison or her master. Don't really care. This was done simply as a matter of course, something that needed to be done to show a slave her place.

And don't even get me started on the major "onlineism" that is slave protectors.

Thank you all for answering the questions ... I learned a lot ... Thank You !

I hope my questions weren't judgemental as they were just my way of trying to learn more about Gor and it's ways.

I love Laura ... and it is a great adventure to be a kajira ...

Raven

Raven wrote:

Thank you all for answering the questions ... I learned a lot ... Thank You !

I hope my questions weren't judgemental as they were just my way of trying to learn more about Gor and it's ways.

I love Laura ... and it is a great adventure to be a kajira ...

Raven

To clarify my previous post, I was speaking in general about the entire course of events for this scene and scenario. I'm not and didn't mention any names, I'm just presenting a general impression of the whole affair. Some people did great, some people didn't, and some people are upset. My post was about that.

As for why my character has instructed his slave not to serve someone, that's entirely IC. Rather than leap to an OOC conclusion for this, especially in the first instance and without investigation or prior roleplay, it would be nice if people addressed this IC in-world. There are reasons for the action that was taken. All of them are IC, and based on what and who my character is. That's the proper arena in which to address this.

In regard to protectors for slaves, I'm fully aware that's an onlinism. I'll not get Markos started on that one, though. But I will say that it would be nice if people didn't assume that retaining or using them isn't because they don't know better, but because they do so knowingly and with reason. In fact, it would be nice if people were less judgmental and more helpful, as a general rule. Second Life Gor is rife with debates that end up like this. Let's all work together to make Laura better than that.

Ah, here is the fun part about slaves though. You are her master, and if you order her not to serve someone, that's great. If you are not nearby though, and that someone orders them to serve, they have a choice to make. Get punished now, or get punished later. A slave is to obey ALL free.

If you tell her not to serve me, for instance, and I see her sitting in the square and tell her to go fetch me something, if she refuses, I am going to punish her. If she does it for me, you are going to punish her. It is, I suppose, one of the most difficult parts of being a slave.

And, just as a theoretical, what happens if she refuses the serve, and I whip her, and she still refuses the serve, and in a fit of rage at her defiance, I throw her off the pavilion to the tharlarions? I now owe you a tarn disk or something in recompense, and that's it. Now her decision becomes die by my hand, or be punished by you. Quite the quandary, no?

I agree though that we are all adults here, and no one needs to have their head explode over this. It was an issue that was addressed and dealt with. I have no doubt these incidents will crop up from time to time. We have some of the best RPers I have ever seen in Laura, and the really good RPers also tend to be the emotional RPers. They also tend to be invested in their RP, to the point that they have serious problems with anyone they feel 'cheapens" it. But we are Laurans, we are better than that, and we will perservere.

Quote :

Dren, not knowing the full on "gorean" point of view on this, brought it to Sage, who brought it to me.

Well I did, just thought a low-key response in a new city would be best......guess I failed miserably.......

Raven wrote:

Thank you all for answering the questions ... I learned a lot ... Thank You !

I hope my questions weren't judgemental as they were just my way of trying to learn more about Gor and it's ways.

I love Laura ... and it is a great adventure to be a kajira ...

Raven

No worries Raven, we all love you

Quote :

But I will say that it would be nice if people didn't assume that retaining or using them isn't because they don't know better, but because they do so knowingly and with reason. In fact, it would be nice if people were less judgmental and more helpful, as a general rule.

I wholeheartedly agree. I just disagree that "protecting" someone from what they claim to have been seeking when they came to gor is that helpful. If they want to play the role of slave, they need to play the role of slave. keeping them "protected" doesn't really do anything but make them princesses. I read maddison's RP limits, and effectively she is a FW who kneels a lot. Anything even remotely slave like or "unpleasant" is outside her limits. That's like RPing an elf who acts like Gimli. He might be a great person, but he ain't no elf.

Dren wrote:

Quote :

Dren, not knowing the full on "gorean" point of view on this, brought it to Sage, who brought it to me.

Well I did, just thought a low-key response in a new city would be best......guess I failed miserably.......

I just had a 90 minute discussion about this very issue. No, I don't think at all that you failed. Some may see the fact that you didn't punish her immediately as weak, but my take on it is why would you risk your new position in a city you haven't been living in very long over a mere slave? You did not know what I wanted done in this situation, so rather than blindly rushing in balls swinging you chose to confer with me and find out my wishes in the matter, as your superior. FW or not, I'm your boss and you chose not to risk your new job and new place in the high caste social order of Laura over a mere beast. Showed good judgment on your part. What man wants to risk the things truly important to him over nothing more than some chattel? A strong man with his head in the right place.

Byron wrote:

As for why my character has instructed his slave not to serve someone, that's entirely IC. Rather than leap to an OOC conclusion for this, especially in the first instance and without investigation or prior roleplay, it would be nice if people addressed this IC in-world. There are reasons for the action that was taken. All of them are IC, and based on what and who my character is. That's the proper arena in which to address this.

You're completely right about that and for being one who jumped to the conclusion that it was an OOC reason, or even an IC reason related to this issue, I apologize fully.